Ever wonder what happens when a prospective client asks ChatGPT who they should hire?
Cassie Egli, AI visibility strategist and founder of Straight4Ward Consulting & Marketing, joins to unpack the new layer of search that every B2B service provider needs to understand: answer engine optimization (AEO). We explore why AI tools like ChatGPT and Claude are now functioning as an unofficial "BFF" in the referral process, how to make sure machines and humans alike can immediately tell your business is the right fit, and what to do when your own business needs a pivot.
Cassie shares the cautionary tale of running two brands at once and how consolidating her message turned things around in just six weeks. From the three levels of online visibility to the website elements you can't afford to skip, this conversation is packed with practical wisdom for anyone who wants to be the recommendation, not the afterthought.
0:00 — Introducing Cassie Egli
3:32 — Human First Marketing
4:15 — Childhood Dreams and Cher
7:06 — Bob Mackie and Branding
11:28 — AI Visibility Explained
13:32 — Two Brands Confusion
17:21 — Ideal Client Deep Dive
19:51 — Website Visibility Framework
22:09 — Messaging Flags and Fit
22:47 — Plant Your Flag Messaging
23:49 — AI and Human Attention
24:33 — Stop Being Generic
25:30 — AEO Acronyms Anxiety
26:32 — Position Zero Roadmap
29:32 — Do Websites Still Matter
31:28 — Pivoting With Service
36:57 — Three Levels of Visibility
39:41 — Behind the Brand Lightning Round
45:10 — How to Reach Cassie
45:59 — Final Wrap and CTA
There's a tension every leader of a B2B service has to navigate: How do you scale without compromising the quality of your services - or the values that drive them? The CEO's Heart for Service is where accomplished B2B leaders share hard-won insights on walking that tightrope.
The CEO’s Heart for Service is a production of Brand3. If you’re a B2B service provider who delivers exceptional service but struggles to get your marketing to connect with the right people, find us at brand3.net. And sign up for our Brand3 Newsletter that only sends marketing insights worthy of your inbox - genuinely helpful stuff for the road ahead.
The CEO’s Heart for Service is also supported by Forge Podcast Company, a turnkey production solution for using podcasts to reach a wider audience, win new clients, and grow. Find them at forgepodcast.co
Matt Wolfe: Hi, everybody. Welcome back to The CEO's Heart for Service. My name is Matt Wolfe. I'm a partner and brand strategist at Brand3. We specialize in branding and marketing for B2B service providers, chiefly through our Scale Beyond Referrals program.
We'll talk more about that as the podcast goes on. But today, you're here to meet Cassi Egli.
Cassi and I know each other through the StoryBrand community. She was, and still is, deeply loved by everyone she meets there. I have so many friends who speak highly of her. To know her is to love her enthusiasm and her sense of mission and purpose in serving others.
Cassi is an AI visibility strategist through her company, Straight4Ward Consulting & Marketing. She's placed a huge emphasis on helping us untangle the new mysteries of visibility and search engine work in the world of AI.
How do you get seen by the machines and engines out there, like ChatGPT and Claude? With all these new options available, how do you make sure your business is visible and has a voice on those platforms? Cassi works on answer engine optimization.
If you've felt overwhelmed or intimidated by AEO, GEO, and all the new acronyms piling on top of the SEO mystery we've already been trying to solve, she has some great insights and solutions to share.
She also has a great story. She's someone who's never been afraid to pivot and change direction throughout her career and in her businesses. It's all been driven by what will best serve her clients and where her passion lies at the time.
Those are the two things we're going to explore today: What's going on with AI and search, and what should you consider when you realize it's time not just to grow and scale, but to pivot and change who you are, what you offer, and who you serve?
I can't wait for you to meet Cassi. Let's get into it.
We're here with Cassi. Hi, Cassi!
Cassi Egli: Hey, Matt. Nice to see you again.
Matt Wolfe: It's good to see you, too. I'm so excited. We were already having fun chatting before we hit the record button, and we have so much to talk about. We're going to discuss things I think people really want to hear about.
We serve the same kinds of people, B2B service providers, and we've also worked with home services. We'll talk about all of that. We know and serve many of the same people, and that leads me to my first question.
Matt Wolfe: We have a program called Scale Beyond Referrals, designed for B2B service providers. The beating heart behind it is our effort to make marketing in that space less digital and more human. We know that nothing moves forward in that space until one human meets another, no matter what you're doing online.
So how do we accelerate those human encounters? How do we get them to happen sooner in the buyer's journey? And how do we make those interactions more meaningful? We have to get to know the person behind the brand.
Cassi Egli: Yep, I would totally agree.
Matt Wolfe: Which is why we like to ask a human question to start things off.
Cassi Egli: Okay.
Matt Wolfe: The question we usually start with is this: What did you want to be when you were growing up, when you were a kid? Because you probably didn't foresee Straight4Ward Consulting & Marketing or becoming an AI visibility strategist down the road.
Cassi Egli: I definitely did not, especially since computers didn't even exist when I was growing up, which is pretty crazy.
I actually wanted to be a lawyer or Cher, one or the other, because I love Cher. She's my idol. I've always been TMI, and you never know what's going to come out of my mouth, so I thought it was dangerous of you to ask me a question.
But I really wanted to be Cher. I think she's absolutely amazing. If I couldn't be Cher, then I wanted to be a lawyer. That's because I'm really good at debating, proving my point, and driving it home.
My mom told me to just go to college, and I chose one based on her recommendation because of how spirited it was. Then she said, "Take whatever classes interest you. Don't worry about what degree you get."
I ended up not becoming a lawyer at all. I just never even thought about it again. It's weird how life gives you twists and turns.
Matt Wolfe: It is funny. Did you graduate pre-law, though?
Cassi Egli: Nope. I didn't even graduate pre-law. I just looked at classes I was interested in, and I wound up with a major in clothing and textiles and a minor in human sexuality. Neither of which I'm doing today. Kids, don't do what I did!
Matt Wolfe: You know what, though? If you're going to be a Cher superfan, you might as well major in clothes and human sexuality.
Cassi Egli: Exactly! She just said to take classes you enjoy, and I liked sewing at the time. And, you know, I was a teenager and a young college student. Who doesn't like human sexuality at that age?
Matt Wolfe: Boy, I tell you, I really love that. It's true. That's the right advice for the right kid, you know?
Cassi Egli: To follow that path.
Matt Wolfe: For the right kid, yeah.
Cassi Egli: I don't know. My husband always says it all works out in the end, and I've had an interesting journey, that's for sure.
What I really discovered through all of that was that I was really good at marketing and sales. That's been the thread running through my entire career, regardless of what I was doing.
It's pretty interesting how I got here today. That's a whole other episode, Matt.
Matt Wolfe: It probably is. I know. There's always so much more we want to talk about.
Matt Wolfe: Believe it or not, Cher has been on my mind lately, and there's a reason for that. Bob Mackie just passed away.
Cassi Egli: I saw that.
Matt Wolfe: Right. For anyone who doesn't know who Bob Mackie was, he was a legendary designer to the stars.
Cassi Egli: Oh, amazing.
Matt Wolfe: Especially in the '60s and '70s.
Cassi Egli: Especially Cher, yes!
Matt Wolfe: He's really known for Cher and Carol Burnett.
Cassi Egli: Yes, yes.
Matt Wolfe: But also Dolly Parton and so many others. It's been coming out of the woodwork. He made beautiful dresses for all kinds of people, but they were statement pieces that celebrated true individuality. His gift was that he could really help people express themselves.
I got to experience that firsthand. I worked with Bob Mackie on a show called Catch Me If You Can.
Cassi Egli: Are you kidding me?
Matt Wolfe: No, I spent a few months coming in and out of the dressing room with Bob.
Cassi Egli: No way!
Matt Wolfe: I played a bunch of different parts, and he dressed me in all these funny costumes for the show. I felt like I was Harvey Korman on The Carol Burnett Show.
This was in my past life in theater, for listeners who don't know. I came from theater, and that was my pathway into marketing.
Cassi Egli: I'm telling you, I keep putting it out there that I want to meet Cher. If anybody's out there, I think I could be a great best friend. I just want to sit on a sofa with her. So now I'm one step closer because you worked with Bob Mackie. With the seven degrees of separation, I'm one step closer to Cher.
Get me there, Matt!
Matt Wolfe: I always joke that during my theater career, I met and worked with some famous people. I think I managed to get one degree of separation from just about anyone, but they don't know who I am.
I could get to them. Anyway, my point about Mackie is this: For people who know Cher and Carol Burnett, think about those unique, individualized looks he created for them.
Honestly, that's how we should want to make people feel with our messaging and marketing.
Cassi Egli: I was just thinking the same thing. I wondered if I could weave this into how people establish themselves through their marketing and brand. It really does have something to do with it, right?
In my opinion, you need a unique statement, a unique angle, a unique idea, and a very human, open approach.
I'd also argue, and maybe I'm wrong, that Cher, Carol Burnett, and people like Bette Midler were unabashedly and unashamedly themselves. They had a point of view and an opinion, and it got them where they needed to go.
There's definitely a connection to creating a successful company and building your own successful brand. Maybe there's a book in this. Maybe Cher needs to talk to me about writing one.
Matt Wolfe: All right.
Cassi Egli: She's trying to get there!
Matt Wolfe: Cher and Cassie have to become friends, start the Cher and Cassie Marketing Podcast, and write a book.
Cassi Egli: Yes! There we go.
Matt Wolfe: Boy, wouldn't that be fun? But here's the thing: Everyone you just mentioned was deeply individual. People responded to them because they were truly authentic and individual.
Cassi Egli: Mm-hmm.
Matt Wolfe: That drew a huge audience to them. They knew their audience. Cher knew who she was making those costumes for, and Bob Mackie knew who he was designing them for.
It's the connection between all those things: celebrating someone's individuality and strengths in the context of their relationship with their audience.
But if I tell you that your marketing messaging and branding could be as individualized as Cher's, and you're in finance or tech, you're probably not going to believe me. It's not about sequins or how much fabric is on someone's body.
Cassi Egli: Right.
Matt Wolfe: It's about being true to yourself, being authentic, and trusting that you'll connect with the right people.
Cassi Egli: Right.
Matt Wolfe: We talk a lot about that in our Scale Beyond Referrals program. It sounds like you do, too, from your side of things.
Which brings me to my next question. Okay, that's enough about Cher. Let's talk about you.
Matt Wolfe: Let's talk about Straight4Ward Marketing. For a moment, let's introduce people to what you're focused on right now as an AI visibility strategist. What problems are you solving, and what services are you offering?
Cassi Egli: As I said, I've been in marketing and sales pretty much my entire adult professional career. With Straight4Ward Consulting & Marketing, I've spent the last year leaning heavily into answer engine optimization and making sure that whether a human or a machine is doing the searching, you're the recommendation.
I don't know if people are aware of this, but it's happening whether you want it to or not. There's a new layer in the referral process, and it's your BFF: ChatGPT or another AI tool. People are getting to know, like, and trust these tools almost as if they were their best friend or advisor.
Even if you're used to getting referrals, people are taking those recommendations and putting them into ChatGPT. They'll say, "Hey, Matt just recommended these two people to me. This is my problem. Who do you think the best person for it is?"
Often, before they even get to someone's website, they're heading straight to that person and making a call.
It's definitely a new layer in search that people aren't used to yet. Whether the search starts with a human recommendation or traditional online search, AI is now a factor in the conversation. You definitely need to prepare for it and get ahead of the game while you still can.
Matt Wolfe: How are you helping people do that? What does it look like when you dig in with a client?
Cassi Egli: I actually have my own framework called the Visibility Stack Framework that I take people through. It has four different pillars, and I created it because I became my own worst client. There's a story there.
Cassi Egli: You asked me earlier about how I've been changing things around, and I have been for about the last two years. I've always had Straight4Ward Consulting & Marketing, but I had this brilliant idea to open another business called Taboo Digital Marketing.
This is coming full circle because I don't usually talk about my sexual wellness background on a podcast. With Taboo Digital Marketing, I wanted to help highly regulated brands in sexual wellness and adult holistic wellness, including alternative methods.
I wasn't sure how happy my Straight4Ward clients would be with that, so I decided to create an entirely new persona, a new website, and a new set of services.
I had Straight4Ward on one side, a traditional digital marketing agency focused heavily on SEO, answer engine optimization, and the power of storytelling, just like you. Then I had Taboo Digital Marketing, which positioned me as a sexuality and wellness expert specializing in regulated industries.
What happened was that I really confused my audience. As you and I both know, when you confuse, you lose.
I confused both my online audience and my human audience. And guess what happened? Everything started getting softer. Referrals became quieter, and my online leads slowed down. Everything felt a little mushier. My social reach was already down because of other things happening at the time.
My mentor suggested, "When was the last time you looked at yourself online? Is it really wise to have these two businesses?"
I thought, "I'm an expert at this. This is going to be great. Let's look it up."
But it was a confusing nightmare. Because I'd developed two personas, the online tools didn't know what to make of me, so they skipped me. The same thing was happening in my human referral community at networking events. People were thinking, "Okay, this is a little out there. I'm not quite sure how I feel about this. I don't really have referrals for her, so I'm just going to move on."
So I looked at what I did best for my clients: helping them become the recommendation, whether a human or an AI tool was doing the searching. Then I reverse-engineered that process for myself.
I sunsetted Taboo, went back to Straight4Ward Consulting & Marketing, and focused on unifying my message. I became very clear about who I serve and who I don't serve online.
Within six weeks, business was already picking up again. I'd turned the corner, and within about two months, my schedule was full. I no longer needed to go looking for business.
It was amazing how a few tweaks, cleaning up my online visibility, and making sure everything said the same thing helped me pick up business and get moving in the right direction again.
Matt Wolfe: Six weeks is a rapid turnaround.
Cassi Egli: It was. I think it's because I already had a strong online presence with Straight4Ward, and I decided to keep it because of that.
I already had a strong following for Straight4Ward, and I had almost canceled it to go with Taboo. I think it would have been a totally different story if I'd gone in the Taboo direction.
But because I folded everything back into Straight4Ward and cleaned everything else up on the Taboo side, I was able to turn things around pretty quickly.
Matt Wolfe: There are a couple of things I really like about where we're going with this, particularly focusing on the people you serve. That's so important. We spend a lot of energy on that in Scale Beyond Referrals, too, because a lot of people have a little handful of bullet points that might fit on the back of a business card describing their ideal client.
Cassi Egli: Yep.
Matt Wolfe: What we really challenge people to do is go beyond that. What if we go deeper? Rather than looking at bullet points, theories, or strategic descriptions of who you want to talk to, what if we look at your lived experience as a B2B service provider?
You've spent time deeply embedded with the people you serve, and that's an incredible advantage when it comes to marketing. Who are the people who have really grown your business? If you had more of them, those are the people who would continue to grow your business.
There's a niche and an industry involved, but there are also other strong markers that help you identify who that person is.
I heard a fascinating example this morning. It's an online mastermind group centered around business books. Members discuss the books and then help each other apply the lessons. But the real hook is that you don't have to read the book before you join.
Cassi Egli: Oh, okay.
Matt Wolfe: They present the ideas from the book and then help people understand and apply those lessons to their businesses during the session, because that's the part that often gets away from people.
They're speaking to people who struggle with two things: reading the book in the first place and then applying what they've learned.
Cassi Egli: Right.
Matt Wolfe: So their club isn't for everyone who likes business books. It's not for people who actively read them, apply the lessons, do the homework, and are hungry to learn that way. We know those people. I see the books on their shelves when we're talking to them.
Cassi Egli: Yep. Yep.
Matt Wolfe: Instead, the group is for people who really wish they could do those things, but something about their personality, life, or schedule gets in the way.
That's already a much more specific story. I'm talking about something human alongside a need, with other qualifiers, too. They're CEOs of a certain type of company, and all the usual bullet points come into play.
Cassi Egli: Right. Right.
Matt Wolfe: But there's a human hook that brings these people together and helps them form a community.
Cassi Egli: In terms of visibility, I have my Visibility Stack Framework. For websites, I have a Visibility to Opportunity Framework that combines the power of storytelling with SEO and what I like to call AEO for AI tools.
Everyone can call it GEO, AI SEO, AEO, EIEIO. It doesn't matter.
In the Visibility to Opportunity Framework, there are three things I encourage everyone to include on their website.
First, in the top three sections of your website, have a very clear statement about who your product or service is for. Be specific about your customer persona or avatar. The more specific, the better.
You also need to understand that you cannot be known for everything. You can be known for one or two things, but you can't be known for everything in the online world.
Second, I encourage people to put their pricing online. That's another way to differentiate yourself.
Third, and this might not be as obvious, include FAQs. Although they've become less important than they used to be, having answers to your most commonly asked questions on your website still matters.
These FAQs should be on each individual page, not just in one section of your website. Your home services page should have FAQs about those services. Your About Us page should have questions relevant to that page. If you have a copywriting page, include FAQs about copywriting. If you have a web design page, include FAQs about website development.
Split up those FAQs and put them on the appropriate pages.
Combining all three of these things with the power of storytelling and your own unique statement will help both machines and humans look at your website and say, "Hey, this is for me," or, "It's not for me."
The goal is to get people to stop scrolling, stop searching, and recognize that you're the person who can help them solve their problem. They need to feel that you understand them. Basically, they shouldn't need to search anymore.
Matt Wolfe: It's comforting to know that there are things we need as humans that the internet needs, too. Sometimes we think those things are so separate.
We were both StoryBrand guides for a while, and there was always a piece of the training that I felt was missing. I used to think, "Don't we have to make sure people know they fit here? We have to get the messaging right."
I used to tell clients, "We've got to plant a big damn flag on what you do and who it's for."
Cassi Egli: Yep.
Matt Wolfe: So people can put their minds at ease and check that box, thinking, "I belong here."
Cassi Egli: Right. This really is for me.
Matt Wolfe: Sometimes the messaging alone can't do that, especially if you've got an off-the-beaten-path service, a new service, or any kind of new or unique solution. You have to plant that flag as high up on the website as makes sense because you need to connect those dots for people.
This thing that sounds really good was made for me.
Cassi Egli: And people are so inundated with information. They want to be able to find what they're looking for quickly, which is why I say to put it above the fold, or at least close to it. For your listeners, above the fold means the first screen you see before scrolling. It doesn't necessarily have to be above the fold, but it should definitely be in the first three sections.
I think the biggest difference now is that it's becoming more important to stand for something. Like you said, you need to plant that flag in the sand and stand for something. If you try to be all things to all people, it's going to be harder to rank and harder to be found.
Cassi Egli: AI tools only take about two seconds to scrape your website. If they can't clearly understand who you are, what problem you solve, how easy it is to do business with you, and who your ideal customer is, they're going to skip you and go somewhere else. You don't want them to skip you. You want them to stick with you.
It's the same with humans. They'll only take a few seconds to scan your headlines. You need to create that "Dang, they get me!" moment. That feeling of, "I'm in the right place," like you said. Otherwise, they're going to go somewhere else.
Traditional websites that focus entirely on the business rather than the client, with nothing but generic information, aren't going to cut it anymore. At least, I don't think so in this era.
Matt Wolfe: I've been saying more and more that one of the biggest things you can do for people, for any brand, is to make them feel understood. That's especially important in the B2B services space, where relationships and trust matter so much.
Good brand messaging, and ultimately the marketing that delivers it, needs to say at some point, "Hey, man, I get you. We're the people who understand your story, specifically."
You can only do that when you stop trying to be all things to all people and really define your audience.
That's the only way to get to that kind of messaging. Otherwise, you're so generic that people might think, "Well, that's a nice thing. I wonder if this could be for me."
Instead, from the very first headline, you want them to think, "Oh, shoot. You're telling my story. I belong here. You made that Cher dress just for me."
Thank you, Bob Mackie.
Cassi Egli: Thank you, Bob Mackie.
Matt Wolfe: Right? Like, you know?
Matt Wolfe: Cassi, I want to go back for a second to something you mentioned earlier. You started listing all these acronyms, and something has happened in everything you're talking about.
Most of us business owners and leaders thought we had one thing to worry about: SEO.
Cassi Egli: Right.
Matt Wolfe: Most of us, unless we're in marketing, only marginally understood what it was, but we got the basics. We knew we had to have it.
Then, out of nowhere, there's a whole trainload of other acronyms. Suddenly, we've got AEO, GEO, and all these other things. To me, that's symbolic of the stress people feel around what you said earlier: "I've got to get ahead of this. I've got to catch up."
How do you help people deal with that existential fear and dread that so much has changed so quickly?
Cassi Egli: I think it's really the Wild West out there right now. Even when you're keeping up with everything, things change constantly. I run a Position Zero Challenge workshop about every six weeks, and every time, I have to go out and see what's changed and update my presentation. That's partly because of the theories I'm developing and the things I'm working to prove.
I offer both done-for-you and done-with-you services. The Position Zero Challenge teaches people what AEO, or answer engine optimization, is and why they should care. We look at whether they're showing up and, if they are, whether the information being presented is correct.
If you think about it, even you and I, Matt, have gone through these transitions. I was known as the Shopify queen and a StoryBrand expert through Straight4Ward Consulting & Marketing. Then I moved toward tying that expertise into online visibility. Eventually, I realized I had a natural knack for helping people show up in answer engine optimization, too, so I developed my own frameworks and theories.
Throughout the six and a half years I've been in business, I've had to make sure everything is cleaned up, consistent, and current everywhere I've been online because AI is scraping all that information. I teach people about that.
Are you showing up? If you are, are you showing up correctly? If you're not showing up, we give you a roadmap that explains exactly what you need to do to start appearing and become the recommendation.
That's a good introductory class. Then I offer done-for-you services for people who want more help.
If you're all in, you're a thought leader or B2B service provider, and you know you don't want to rely only on human referrals, you may want something working for you 24/7 to bring in leads. That's what SEO and AEO can help you do, and we offer those services, too.
I mentioned that it took me only six weeks to turn things around, but I already had strong SEO, meaning I was showing up on Google searches rather than just AI tools. That made it much easier for me to start appearing in AI tools as well.
But my argument is that you could probably leapfrog SEO if you've never invested in it. Maybe you've never been involved with SEO and wondered why you should care. I think you could have gotten away without it. I don't think you'll be able to ignore answer engine optimization, even if your business relies entirely on referrals, for much longer.
I'd say that within the next six months to a year, if you haven't figured it out and started working toward it, you're going to get left behind.
Cassie Egli: And that's because I say, "I do websites." I'm wondering if websites will even be here three years from now, or if they'll even be necessary, because people are just going to chat. They're not even looking at your website. They're deciding from there whether or not they're going to make the call.
Matt Wolfe: You don't think they would look at the website as sort of a validation layer? To go deeper, like, "I want to read more about what this person is about"?
Cassie Egli: I think it depends on the referral and the amount of investment. So, I think it's going to become less important. Currently, I still say it's a very important piece of the puzzle because you have to have somewhere for people to land that has all the correct information, and that you can push people to.
But there are people, like, if I think about when I was just looking for lawyers for someone in my family. I didn't wind up looking at their websites. I just said, "Hey, this is what's going on. This is what his needs are. This is his area. Would you give me your top three recommendations and tell me why you're giving me those recommendations? And then, what key questions should I ask them?"
I didn't go to their websites. They gave me their contact information and everything right there, so I just clicked it, gave them the information, and told them to call.
Matt Wolfe: Wow. Okay, that use case alone is just such a powerful example. I mean, that really is such a powerful example. You don't need to hear anything else.
Cassie Egli: So, I definitely think people need to at least be knowledgeable about it and be aware of what their online presence is, and make an educated decision. I think right now people are kind of putting their heads in the sand and hoping that it passes, that it just passes. I don't think it's going to pass.
Matt Wolfe: Doesn't seem likely, does it?
Cassie Egli: No.
Matt Wolfe: If we're already calling Chat our BFF, I think we're already down the road.
Cassie Egli: Yes.
Matt Wolfe: I'm really glad you're touching on some of the past things you've done, the different iterations of the business, because this is what I think is really interesting today in terms of the CEO's heart for service, which is what we usually talk about.
You know, we're always talking about how you maintain your sense of service and care for the people you serve when you have that heart for them, when you're a difference-maker at heart, when you really care about your clients.
Normally, we're talking about how, as you grow and scale, you'll continue to serve them well and stay true to your core values.
However, there's the growth line within an individual company, but there are those of us out there who have shifted gears, changed identities, changed services, and made a substantial paradigm shift in what we were doing and what we were offering. You're just a wonderful example of that, having navigated those changes over the years.
So, I don't think we've ever talked about this particular idea of how you navigate change as someone with a heart for service.
I'm curious about that. What challenges have you faced in continuing to find and take great care of the people you work with, while also staying true to yourself through all these twists and turns?
Cassie Egli: Well, I've always been someone who has to be passionate about something in order to sell it and service it. If I don't believe in something, it's just something I don't do. That's the key.
But I think that's especially relevant in our world right now, Matt, because AI has taken over, or at least, in some people's minds, taken over some jobs.
Take copywriting, for example. If you've been a copywriter for quite a while, everyone was saying, "Oh, well, AI can do it." But I think they're realizing now that AI can do it, but you have to have a human involved in order for it to be human, right?
So, part of my business evolution has simply been because I feel like I see the writing on the wall with this new landscape. I think there's going to be a before-AI and after-AI situation going on here, and we're going to have to come up with some kind of acronym for that.
But whenever I'm making a pivot, I always ask myself: Is it going to benefit my clients? Is it something I'm passionate about, something I'd like to plant my flag in the sand and stand behind?
Then I make sure I'm really taking the time to make that pivot thoughtfully and fully. I think people often make a pivot, but their entire company doesn't understand what the pivot is. Not everyone is on board, and that's going to be really important, especially if you're a heart-centered CEO who genuinely wants to help clients.
Making sure your entire team is on board is important. Making sure you're visible across the online landscape is important. Making sure your qualifying questions weed out anyone you may no longer be able to help, given your current direction, is important, too. And you have to be willing to say no to a potential prospect or client when they're no longer a good fit.
Matt Wolfe: That's really great. I was jotting down my notes, and it sounds like you were laying out the secret formula for making a pivot well. I think it's very relatable.
There's the passion piece. Your mom knew you pretty well when she gave you that advice in college, didn't she? She must have known you'd pursue things you were passionate about, because that's when you're at your best.
Cassie Egli: Yes, she did.
Matt Wolfe: What a wonderful thing that she knew you so well.
And you're not alone in that. There's passion, doing something that benefits clients, going all in on it, and then the visibility piece. The very nature of the work you're doing and who you are brings an important reminder to people.
I don't know that a lot of CEOs and leaders would think about that. They'll ask, "Who do we serve?" The really savvy ones will ask, in terms of marketing, "What do we say? What's our message? What are we doing? How will we deliver it?"
And in the midst of all that, they'll even ask, perhaps the really great ones, "How will that impact our culture?" Like you said, "How do we bring the team along? How do we nurture and manage the transition?"
All of those things will come up. But I don't know that I'd hear someone asking, "Okay, but will we still be visible online?"
Cassie Egli: Right. They don't think about it, but you have to now. I really think you do.
Matt Wolfe: And I think that's a different question from whether people can find us. People know to talk about SEO and ask whether we can make sure we're findable in search, but visibility is different, I think.
Cassie Egli: Well, I'm kind of breaking it down like this. I'm still working on it. I'm planning on writing a book, and I'm still working on my theories, but there are three different levels of visibility.
The first is to be found. You need to be able to show up and be found.
Once you've gotten on people's radars, the next step is... AI used to say, I call it Position Zero because it appeared above the 10 links on page one, right? If you look at Google, the AI chat is Position Zero, and then you've got links one through 10.
With AI tools other than Google, like Claude, they'll normally give you around three options. So you want to be one of those three options.
That's being found. But after you've been found, you need to do some extra work to be chosen. Out of those three options, you want to be the person they call.
Then you move to the next level, which is to be the recommendation. That's what I'm working toward. I want anyone online, or anyone I'm talking to, who mentions a visibility challenge, a business pivot, or wanting to get more referrals online, to say, "Cassie at Straight4Ward Consulting & Marketing, that's who you have to go to."
I want to be the recommendation, the only recommendation. That's where thought leaders, especially, should want to get to online.
So first, you get found. Then you double down so that you're getting chosen. And finally, you become the recommendation, the go-to source in your area or profession for a particular problem.
Matt Wolfe: That's excellent. Man, Cassie, there's so much more I want to talk about here. I almost feel like we need a part two.
Cassie Egli: I'd love to have a part two.
Matt Wolfe: But I think what we've successfully done is awakened people to the need for this and unpacked the idea of what happens when you change your direction.
Both of us come at this from the perspective that a change in direction affects who you're talking to, how you talk to them, and how you become visible to them. There are massive considerations that come along with that. But as soon as you address those things, your business gets stronger.
Everything becomes more focused: what you offer, how your team delivers it, all of it.
Cassie Egli: Yes.
Matt Wolfe: So, for anyone who's pivoting, whether it's the brand strategy and storytelling angle we come from or your work in answer engine optimization, these things become absolutely critical.
Matt Wolfe: But what we like to end with here, Cassie, and I want to make sure we get this in real quick, is that B2B marketing for service providers has to be more human. If you're a small to midsize business and you're the owner or leader, you're still the face behind the brand. We argue that someone has to choose to trust in you.
Cassie Egli: Yes, for sure.
Matt Wolfe: We've got to get to know those people and get a good idea of who you are. We've got some good clues, but we have seven questions we like to ask at the end.
Cassie Egli: Okay.
Matt Wolfe: It's called the Behind the Brand questionnaire, so people can get a little more insight into who Cassie is.
Cassie Egli: Be careful what you ask, Matt. Sure.
Matt Wolfe: Can we do it in three minutes? Okay, this is going to be our lightning round. I don't know if we've ever done it in three minutes, but I believe in us.
Number one: What's your go-to karaoke song?
Cassie Egli: Oh my word. I was a karaoke DJ through my first divorce. "I Will Survive" is my all-time favorite song. That's what got me my karaoke DJ gig in the first place. "I Will Survive," for sure.
Matt Wolfe: Great one. That's also very... It's not Cher, but it's Cher-ish.
Cassie Egli: Yes.
Matt Wolfe: Okay, what's the last thing that made you laugh out loud?
Cassie Egli: Oh my gosh. Well, I was laughing out loud with you earlier, so I guess I'd have to say just talking to you. I laugh at myself all the time because I amuse myself to absolutely no end. I'm somebody who very easily laughs at themselves, but I will say chatting with you.
Matt Wolfe: I'm honored. What fun! What's your favorite way to get away from it all?
Cassie Egli: Ooh, I would say those saltwater baths. It's like an egg-shaped pod, a deprivation tank kind of thing. Have you heard of it? It's filled with 2,000 pounds of saltwater, and it's shaped like an egg. You go inside and float. I do it in total darkness, with 10 minutes of music at the beginning and 10 at the end, for an hour.
You just sit there in room-temperature water, in the dark, with nothing but yourself and, hopefully, not your thoughts. Just chilling out. I love it.
Matt Wolfe: That sounds amazing. For the right person, I would lose my mind. Okay, what smell reminds you of a specific place or time?
Cassie Egli: Onions. My mom's breath, and she's going to hate this if she ever listens to this. But it reminds me of childhood. My mom used to love onion dip and things like that. She loves fresh onions, so fresh onions always remind me of my mom and growing up.
Matt Wolfe: Okay. What's one day in your life you'd like to relive?
Cassie Egli: The day I met my husband. I fell deeply in love instantly and thought, "There's the husband I'll never have," and now I'm married to him. It was just a great day. I literally fell in love at first sight. It was like someone knocked me over the head. It's a great feeling.
Matt Wolfe: Well, I love that. Look how that worked out!
Okay, we're almost there. Two more questions. What are three words your loved ones would use to describe you?
Cassie Egli: Three words, huh? I'd say blunt or honest. Definitely caring, probably to a fault. Meddling might be in the mix as well because I feel like I can fix things. I'm a fixer. How about that? I feel like I can fix things, and if I can, I should.
I'd also say caring. I really do care, and I take the time to see how people are doing. I appreciate it when they do the same for me.
Matt Wolfe: Many of us meddle with good intentions.
Cassie Egli: Meddler.
Matt Wolfe: Okay, last one. What would it mean to have succeeded in your career, in your work, when you look back and you're ready to go lie on a beach somewhere?
Cassie Egli: You know, I'm reading What to Make of a Life right now because I'm trying to figure that out.
My goal and passion come from having owned another business, a brick-and-mortar and online store, for 14 and a half years. I made a lot of marketing mistakes. If I can help people stop spending money on the wrong marketing and start making money with it, then either build a business they can use as passive income, sell it successfully like I did with my last business, or pass it down to another generation, I'll feel like I've made a positive impact on small to midsize businesses. I'll feel like I've had a pretty good life.
On a personal level, I want my family and loved ones to know that I cared, and that we spent real time together, where we were both present and just lived and enjoyed life.
Matt Wolfe: That's beautiful. Thanks for sharing that with us. I know we've got to let you go.
Matt Wolfe: Real quick, what's the best way for someone to reach out to you and talk about AI visibility strategy?
Cassie Egli: Sure! For anyone listening to the podcast, I'd be happy to offer a discount code and a link to our Position Zero Challenge, which we can include in the show notes. You can learn what AEO is, whether you're showing up online, and why it matters.
You can also visit S4.marketing/AEO to learn about our visibility services and download five prompts you can use each month to check how you're showing up online and whether you're getting closer to becoming the recommendation or being ignored entirely.
Matt Wolfe: That's awesome. I need to do that this afternoon.
Matt Wolfe: Cassie, it's truly a gift to spend this time with you. Thank you so much for being here and sharing your thoughts and wisdom on this AI puzzle we're trying to solve.
From our side here at Brand3, if you're a B2B service provider who's frustrated with marketing, feels like you've had enough, or is disappointed with the results you've gotten, but you know you still need marketing to scale beyond referrals and reach the right people, we have a program called Scale Beyond Referrals.
Go to scalebeyondreferrals.com to learn how to attend an introductory workshop and find out what the program is all about.
All right, Cassie, thank you so much!
Cassie Egli: Thank you so much. It was nice chatting with you!
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