What happens when a business built on genuine relationships tries to grow and nearly loses everything that made it special in the process? That's the honest, behind-the-scenes story we're unpacking today with Brand3 founder and President Orsi Herbein. Orsi shares the real lessons from 10 years of building a branding and marketing agency, including a painful season of chasing the wrong definition of success, why hastily delegating client relationships almost cost the company, and how getting clear on your own definition of success changes everything. If you lead a service-based business and feel the pull between growth and staying true to what matters most, this one is for you.
There's a tension every leader of a B2B service has to navigate: How do you scale without compromising the quality of your services - or the values that drive them? The CEO's Heart for Service is where accomplished B2B leaders share hard-won insights on walking that tightrope.
Matt Wolfe: Sarah, what did you pick up today? What can the listeners look forward to today as we walk through this interview?
Sarah Pattisall: I think there's a lot of great stuff here, but one thing that really stood out to me was when you are a business owner, and you know you have a heart for service and you wanna grow, how important it is to think about success not in what other people tell you success is, or what it looks like for them, but what it. Looks like uniquely for you because of the person you are and the business that you've built, and moving forward based on that and not outside noise.
Matt Wolfe: Yeah, I think something I end up saying a lot in this interview is that some of the lessons we need to learn are just profoundly human and simple. And I think a lot of today's conversation is about giving people the confidence, leaders of other companies, to just be true to themselves and to. Feel okay. Filtering out all of the advice and all of the strategy and everything that people throw at them in their heads and just trust their gut. I think that's something you can look forward to hearing today as we listen ahead. All right.
Matt Wolfe: Hey, welcome, Orsi. Sarah, welcome to the thing. We're gonna do it today. We've been looking forward to spending this time together to dig into our own story.
Matt Wolfe: Sarah, we just left the most wonderful conversation with one of our own, with Orsi Herbein, founder and President. I don't know. You can call her the CEO, too. Overall, a brilliant person. Like, we got to get the Brand3 story today, which was really fun.
Sarah Pattisall: It was really fun, and it was great for me. I've been with Brand3 for about four years now. Hearing about how Brand3 was built up and what it was like before I was here. It was very interesting, and it's always great to hear Orsi talk about what she cares about.
Matt Wolfe: Yeah, we both came in. I think I came in as a contractor about halfway through the journey, and then I became a partner about a year and a half ago. You've been here, so by the way.
Matt Wolfe: I forgot to introduce Sarah Pattisall, my co-host today, a brilliant brand strategist and copywriter, and someone also with a true heart for service.
Matt Wolfe: Let's start with the basics for the audience here. We know who we are, but they don't, so let's just tell him about Brand3 and what we do and who we serve, Orsi.
Orsi Herbein: Brand3 at its core is a branding and marketing agency. But it's evolved, right? So it's more than that. We are beyond marketing and infinity. I, I'd like to say that we help service-based B2B businesses that are highly relational, scale beyond referrals, and that came many hula hoops and a million tries of defining who we are for ourselves, which just tells you, listener, that doing brand from the inside out sucks. And it's almost impossible. In fact, it is impossible 'cause we couldn't have done it without outside help. But yeah.
Matt Wolfe: Yeah. What. I often tell clients, and I think you do as well, really just to make them feel better, 'cause I think people feel kind of bad that they couldn't figure it out on their own. And it's just, I say that if the law, one of the great laws of physics, is that what goes up, must come down. Then one of the great laws of marketing is that we are all too close to our own stuff.
Orsi Herbein: Yeah.
Matt Wolfe: Need someone to come in and help us. So yeah, this'll be a fun story, 'cause then maybe we got, we just celebrated Brand3's 10th anniversary. We've made it 10 years down the road, and Brand3 has seen different versions of itself as it's grown and tried to figure out its identity. The first thing.
Matt Wolfe: 'cause we're talking about the CEO's heart for service. The leader's heart for service, which is something. Now this, this came out of our own story, right? 'cause this is what we look for in our own clients. We look for people with a heart for service. We just, we don't wanna work with just anyone, but people who have really demonstrated their ability and their passion for taking great care of people, taking great care of their clients. But Orsi, my question to you right now is. What does that mean to Brand3? What does it mean to deliver exceptional service to our clients? How do we measure that?
Orsi Herbein: Well, I mean, I would say we measure it through loyalty and feedback. But do we measure it, or is it more like a feeling? Right. Because I think at the end of the day,y what's happening with what I said is that we serve highly relational B2B service providers because we finally landed on. Really focusing on the people that we truly understand because we are them, right? We are a highly relational B2B service provider. So when you ask us or ask me what I think is the CEO's heart for services, that. You get up every morning, try to make a difference for the clients that you serve.
You know, like you're passionate about something. It's almost like you feel like you know something that other people should know, and you wanna pass that on, and you wanna enlighten a path or a way for, for, for something different, or you see something that's broken in the world, and, and, and you have a way of fixing it. And you absolutely live and breathe. That feeling that happens when you are creating an experience where you open someone's eyes and they can see and hear and feel for the first time, like, oh, wow, I never thought about it that way. That makes complete sense. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right?
So, the idea of. Just being truly passionate about making a difference where you see people that you touch, and it doesn't always have to be clients. It could be your employees, your strategic partners, your network, and your clients, just them themm walking. With better perspectives or different ones, you know, ideas, or just being touched by the conversation that you had. Anything that's in a sense a relational business. You know, we thrive on that feeling of building and deepening trust with,
Matt Wolfe: Yeah.
Orsi Herbein: the people that was.
Sarah Pattisall: Now
Matt Wolfe: Yep.
Sarah Pattisall: I've got a question for you, Orsi, 'cause I know. You know, one of the ways at Brand3 that we've really recognized that we've hit the mark with that exceptional client service is also seeing the success our clients have and taking joy in that and celebrating in that. And I'm wondering if you have any really great examples that you'd like to share of a time where we've been able to have success in our client's success, or maybe a story about a really great client relationship.
Orsi Herbein: You know, it's a, it's a really interesting question because I think success is being defined differently by different types of people. And I don't wanna undermine growth, you know, in terms of the business scaling revenue, growing, you know, people being able to make more and more money or maximize the value of their business.
Right. You know, we had all kinds of different success stories where started, you know, working, marketing budgets didn't have to increase to increase the effectiveness of marketing because of the clarity of message,ge, and, and, and, you know, branding work that we've, we've done. But I think. I measure success a little bit differently. know, and I think if, if you were to ask me, I, I measure it, especially from this relational service provider perspective.
I think the people that we serve, most of them would agree that success comes through impact. You know, so it's not necessarily making more money, but just making more impact because of that very thing that you bring to market that you want and are passionate about, you want people to know about, right? So the ability to give that to more and more people, the ability to use it in a way that it's more effective, is what I call success. And you know, not necessarily just the monetary value of a business.
Sarah Pattisall: Yeah.
Sarah Pattisall: Are there any specific clients that come to mind, or examples when you think of success like that?
Orsi Herbein: Yeah. And, you know, we, without naming anyone, you know, we've had just a client recently who has attributed a lot of their success in being able to transition out of their business of, of, of Brand3. You know, like the ability to have a brand that captures the true story and is marketable because it's so clear, enabling them to get a greater value for their business when they sell. And I think that's, that's one way, one example of how branding can make a difference.
Matt Wolfe: Or I'm gonna jump in there 'cause I, I think in this case you might be being too humble because they accomplished something really extraordinary now and they did all the heavy lifting. We gave 'em the strategies that helped them get there and did some stuff that helped them along the way. But because of the brand strategy, what really happened is that they had the confidence in the final negotiations with the private equity firm to achieve.
An astronomical multiplier on their EBITDA, like something that's really, truly unheard of. And to make the exit on their terms and be able to stay with the company, 'cause that was something else they wanted. But when you talk about impact, 'cause we just heard this story the other day, and they are now. Being asked to teach the other companies in their new group of IT providers. They're being asked to teach everyone else what they learned about taking brand strategy and applying it to marketing and sales, and especially client experience, which is what we teach. We, you know, we don't stop at marketing.
We say, take that brand strategy, take that great story that you've developed about the people you serve and what your relationship is with them. It's all the way through the client journey, and they took that to heart. So they told us, literally, we had the confidence to stand. Stand our ground, and they're having a tremendous impact.
Now, another great impact story and Sarah, this one you, this just happened this morning. We were talking about this in our chat thing as a team. We've been working with a company called PCS Technology in San Francisco, and we learned in short that they had a passion for serving nonprofits. They mainly served nonprofits, so we said, let's make you. The champion of nonprofits in San Francisco that's gonna increase their impact, anyway, right? They're gonna find more people to help change more lives through that work. But we, so, so we look for the big picture impact, but we look for, like you said, where she has little signals from the team that tell us this thing is starting to stick. And Sarah, we just had a thing today. You wanna tell 'em what it is, what
Sarah Pattisall: Yes.
Matt Wolfe: What they said.
Sarah Pattisall: Yeah, the client sent over a screenshot of their internal chat communications because the logo mark or icon that we made for them, they turned into like an emoji that you can use as a reaction in their internal teams chat, and their staff just love using it and say that, I think the exact quote was, it hits different. It's like, yes. That's lovely to hear.
Matt Wolfe: And it's, did you say this? It's a heart. I mean
Sarah Pattisall: Yes.
Matt Wolfe: The LO logo is a heart, and it really represents their heart for service and the people that they serve. That one little thing, 'cause it's so core and central to their identity, is helping the whole team catch the vision along with the words and the story that we created. incredible.
Orsi Herbein: Yep.
Matt Wolfe: What I'm taking away from this conversation right now is a couple of thinsi, I, but I love that you talked about how we view service as everyone we can serve. We have our clients, our referral partners, our networks, and then our employees, our staff, our team. I love that. And I think we're looking at a, in this highly relational space. Highly holistic way of looking at success because we do have, we've got analytics, we've got dashboards, we have numbers that prove success, but we look for these anecdotes and moments where we're like, it's sticking, it's making a difference.
And then once in a while, when we're lucky, we get these sorts of big success stories, like an exit. Or if I think of Garrity Insurance, they're a company that's starting to feel more confident about a generational transfer.
Sarah Pattisall: Which I just wanna, yeah, and I just wanna shout out real quick to our listeners if that story about the exit sounded interesting to you. We are going to be releasing that case study soon,n and you can sign up for our newsletter to get an update on when that's happening.
Matt Wolfe: What a great plug, Sarah.
Sarah Pattisall: Thank you.
Matt Wolfe: You. All right.
Orsi Herbein: Wait, before the, before we move on, that PCS heart logo story, when branding is done right, it's really just the truth. I think the effectiveness of that brand refresh and that identity change is that we really took the people. You know, and the owners and the leadership team,m as we were learning about them, and then just do it,yeahh.
Sarah Pattisall: I like that Orsi especially, because you often say too, that brand is perception, right? And it's how people perceive you. And if you are being authentic to yourself and true to your beliefs and what you're trying to provide for the world or your community, then that's gonna be really apparent in your.
Orsi Herbein: Yeah. And you know, for us, we really, we really work with people that. Absolutely deserve to grow because they are difference makers to begin with, right? They, they are the CEO of heart for service. So there's nothing that makes me more upset than those kinds of businesses not growing. You know, it's our job is really just to not just hold up a mirror, but then, you know, to really take a note and, and tell the truth about these businesses that, you know, had brands and they thought they were saying all the things, but they just can't see themselves the same way other people see themselves. You know, it's like, Mm-hmm. daughter's struggling a little bit,t and you know, and all I say to myself every time I talk to her, like, man, I just wish she could see herself the way I see her. know? And I think that's true for a lot of these brands. Like, you know, I just wish. They were truly being seen for who they are. Right.
Matt Wolfe: Oh, that's absolutely true. Ah, that's, I know you and you and I and Sarah, we all celebrate these moments where we're in discovery with a client, and we get to say to them, do you see how great this is? Do you see how cool this thing is that you do? Do you see how this is something you can lean into and celebrate? Good on you. You built this. Like people do amazing things,s and it takes space like we're able to create in a discovery session for people to be recognized. Everyone's just so busy going. They just don't get those moments. And that's another way to serve, I think, is that we know we've served when we've found those gems and those things to truly celebrate about the client.
Sarah Pattisall: And I think that also connects back to why we can't do this work for ourselves, by ourselves, right? No one can, because you need somebody to come in and create that space and shine the mirror back on you and, mm-hmm.
Matt Wolfe: This is great. Orsi. I don't think I've ever heard you say that before. That's when you get your brand right, it's just the truth, but that's so simple and clear. I'm gonna, I'm gonna hang on to that and repeat that quite a bit, actually.
Matt Wolfe: Well, let's talk now. Let's talk about what the podcast is really all about at its heart: this idea that, you know, when you have a great service in place, and you want to grow, there's a big problem ahead. You have to figure out how you're gonna grow without compromising the quality of your service or the core ma core, sorry, core values. You're great to begin with, a nd youmakee the whole thing work and make it special. We're gonna talk about that story here and BBrand3'sstory of that.
Sarah Pattisall: Which I would just have to say, really quickly,y that I think working with Brand3, we have the opportunity a lot to help other people with their core values and to think about core values. And I personally, out of all the core values I've ever seen, I think Brand3s are my favorite.
Orsi Herbein: Nice.
Sarah Pattisall: Mm-hmm.
Matt Wolfe: I guess we'd better say what they are now.
Sarah Pattisall: Yeah, I think we should.
Matt Wolfe: Can we do this? Oh my gosh, I hope we can
Orsi Herbein: I can do it
Matt Wolfe: makers.
Orsi Herbein: percent.
Matt Wolfe: True, true to self
Sarah Pattisall: Mm-hmm.
Matt Wolfe: creative thinkers. Clarity seekers. Mm-hmm.
Orsi Herbein: collaborators
Matt Wolfe: Mm-hmm.
Orsi Herbein: and adaptive advocates.
Sarah Pattisall: Yes. Yes.
Matt Wolfe: That was the one we added a while back. Adaptive advocates being open to change. ready to pivot on behalf of clients, and because this world is changing very fast,t and we all have to work to keep up. It's true, Sarah, actually, that particular set of core values I thought ranked true and was not a small factor in my joining on as a
Orsi Herbein: Hmm.
Matt Wolfe: ' cause I thought they were unique and really defined the culture well, but they weren't always there. Right. So, let's talk about the story, Orsi, as if you think back to the 10 years of Brand 3, where you have felt that tension of needing to maintain the quality of service, staying true to core values. What are some moments of growth that have challenged those things? As you think back through the years, we're just gonna explore some of those.
Orsi Herbein: I remember the days when I was just a little graphic designer
Matt Wolfe: I think it's worth saying too, 'cause this is part of the story, Brand3 started as a visual branding company. Right. Or, or as, right as a graph. More on the design side of things, or just purely branding.
Orsi Herbein: It was a brand. It was, yeah, for sure, for sure. It was a branding company, but I, I just did graphic design, right? So like I uh, was very much into, you know, making things pretty. But I think because I don't know, like, I don't know if there's such a thing as a type A creative. I, I always liked the logic, you know, behind creative. I always liked the box, you know, like in fine art there's like, ooh, concept and paint and play with it, and blah, blah, blah. Like, you know, like, what can I do? I feel like nothing. Would ever get done if I got myself in that headspace, because you can just forever and ever tweak it and play with it. And in graphic design, there's a box.
There's a box of what the client wants, what it's for, and who it's for. What does it have to look like, you know, is it part of a bigger thing, or is it just on its own thing? Right? Like always, loved the box because I love the challenge of it. How can I make my best, most amazing work within the boundaries that were set? Right?
Matt Wolfe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Orsi Herbein: I love that. And I think in, in essence, branding is no different, right? Like, you know, and not only that, branding is no different, but owning a business is no different. You know, there's, there's first of all, I, I'm still amazed to this day how much creativity is in running a business.
And I thought when I was 17 that I was gonna be a graphic designer because there's no way I'm gonna be an accountant doing the same thing over and over again every day. You know, I want a job where I get to do different things every day, and I still have the job, right? So, like, I went into this creative field with that mindset, right? So, because I'm logical, I'm actually almost more logical than aesthetic because I think that that strategy in the box is what allows me to be logical and strategic with even a creative piece.
Right. You know, that's why branding was super like on. Like what I've been doing, branding forever. I didn't even notice, you know what I mean? Like, just finally met, our real,l true founder, Matt, Christ, you know, that's when I realized that I've been doing branding for a long time. I just didn't know what it's called and what it was, and I kinda like this a lot. This really fits Thenen another kind of pivotal change, of turning you know, that to the next level of owning a business, a branding business, right?
So like, and I'm finding this very similar. Lines of how creativity and strategy are so es essential to successfully running a business, right? So I'm like every day because I get to do what I always wanted to do. It's not boring, man. It's not boring. I mean, business owner, you know, you think you're gonna come in and do X and then. Oh, open the email and like 5 million other things happen and, you know, like you just gotta pivot and, and, you know, hustle and, and do things and think like constantly and then still be logical. But the decisions, and you know, it just, there's a lot of components to it. Wanna. near boring and highly strategic. Highly logical and highly creative. Right. So like that's, that's kind of like the, my background story.
Orsi Herbein: But Brand3 is, you know, as we're evolving, one thing that never changed, that we've always been a hundred percent a branding company, right? It's just. What's changed is how we tell that story and connect with the audience because of what they think and feel and know about branding. Where, where are we most relevant to them? And, the truth is, I think to this day there's a big gap in the knowledge of branding and I, and it's, it's very risky for us to just say we are a branding company because brand is still very misunderstood, know? So. Out of branding. There's also very natural extensions into marketing and even before, not just marketing, but sales and customer experience, those are very, very natural extensions of branding.
So I think as we've evolved, we put together a really unique approach, that's more of a. you know, like an overarching and holistic, and it's a, not siloed, but connected and integrated approach to, to branding where we take a lot of the business aspect and the client journey into consideration and, and kind of like weave it all together because branding in its silo. Not applying the greater functions of the business is just as bad as a beautiful postcard that is out and has nothing to do with the rest of the story.
And, you know, it just, it, there's a disconnect, right? So I think it's really important to understand that branding is integrated and, and it, it's, it's it's almost like the foundation. That radiates into every aspect of the business, and that's why, I mean, I don't know personally, I
Sarah Pattisall: Yeah, now Orti with Brand3 and you know, our growth journey over time and how we've really kind of honed this space for ourselves, honed our expertise and grown in this area. So, coming into Brand3 with Matt, Christ. Obviously, you know, these core values we have today are things that the two of you demonstrated, but I'm not sure if you've really had the words for them at the time. So do you feel that as Brand3 kind of scaled and found its area, the values, our core values, naturally developed alongside it? Or how did you arrive there?
Orsi Herbein: I believe the core values that we have are a hundred percent Matt and my values as founders. I think this is relevant for a lot of relational B2B service providers. I really think on some level. The entire essence of the company somehow resonates with the heart of that CEO, right? And I know that out of our core values, I'm a hundred percent most resonating with difference maker. But any of you who know me. knows that I'm a creative thinker, I'm a clarity seeker. I'm a team collaborator, I'm an adaptive advocate, and also a difference maker, right? I mean, you guys know that I'm all of those, all of those things. And I think in essence, those core values are somewhat the mirror for that founder, right? Who created
Sarah Pattisall: I love that.
Orsi Herbein: For and, and you know what? What more joy is to work with people who share that, who are like
Sarah Pattisall: Hmm.
Orsi Herbein: You, who will join you in the mission of your core values, are. Right? And you know, for me, working with an enormous amount of difference makers and now really creating a client base that invites a bunch of different make difference makers into my life and helping. You know, helping them tell their story, you know as I, as I work with them, with everything that I know. Amazing, amazing. You know, so it's,
Sarah Pattisall: Yeah.
Orsi Herbein: It's, I don't know how, when, and if they happen, that they were conscious, but I can tell you that I resonate with every single core value. And I know Matt, Christ does as well, I also know that every one of you does as well, because you were hired based on those core values.
Sarah Pattisall: What I was gonna say. Yeah.
Orsi Herbein: to join this gang based on those core values. And now we are hunting and going after clients to sell to, but to make a difference for. Based on those core values. Right, and, and you know, they all share values on
Matt Wolfe: We're,
Orsi Herbein: a lot of levels.
Matt Wolfe: We're seeing the fruits of that for sure. And let me, let me add a point of historical clarity. There are two Matts in the story. So Matt Christ was a founder, and when he retired. And exited the company. That's when I, like, I'm the new Matt. So then I came on,
Orsi Herbein: There's the old man and Newman.
Matt Wolfe: I'm the new Matt, Orsi, so all this is true, right?
Matt Wolfe: We're seeing the fruits of, of celebrating and sticking to these core values, but what has made it hard to hang onto them or what, what have been the challenges and making sure that, that, that they stayed true as the company has grown.
Orsi Herbein: Well, so there were slippery slopes in, you know, in the history of brand Brand3, and one season comes to mind where I think those core values, even though they were front and center in conversation, they weren't necessarily lived because the goals became skewed. know, the, the goals of scaling, didn't take into consideration the heart of the business, and we're mostly focused outwardly in terms of revenue, in terms of monetary ideas. And then, and then I think based on the definition of success that other people defined. And I kind of like, you know. bit into the apple and tasted it, and it was sweet at first. And then, you know, after a good couple of chews, it turned very sour.
And I, I realized this is poison, you know, and I don't, you know, I, I wish I could tell you that that was like two minutes. It was a longer period of time, and caused you to know things, you know, especially. When you know, I thought that hastily delegating relationships would allow us to scale. It actually, you know it hurt us, hurt us in the long run. And, and, and, you know, while it was painful, I think it was also a really important lesson. And it's also helping us serve our clients in a different way.
Now that we've walked that walk and not just seen it or heard it or whatever. But I do think the outcome of those hard times is that there's a clear understanding for me that relational businesses scale differently than some other businesses.
Matt Wolfe: Let's dig in on that for a minute, 'cause we want to talk about the slippery slopes. And I think this is something that a lot of people would've experienced. So I'm gonna frame this just a little differently than you did, Orsi, having seen it from the outside. What I saw in your journey is something that I think a lot of people would do: you got into growth mode and learning mode. And tried to learn as much as you could, all these strategies, right? And you've got the consultants and the conferences and the books and everything in your head.
It is easy to lose weight, lose sight of, okay, but who are we at the core? And that's where those core values really come into play. And when I think about the moment you're talking about, we basically, we expanded the staff, and we handed the client. Core client relationships sort of fell down the line to some staff who were meant to take and run with those. And it didn't work out because we weren't there yet. After all, we were a relationship-based business. Highly, you know, just, we weren't there yet. The way I've said it is we tried to be a bigger company than we were ready to be. We tried to project. The structure that we wanted to get to someday in the future, in the present, and the real. I think you nailed it. What it really short-circuited was. Some core client relationships. So they're sitting on the other end, really not being able to understand because they entered into a different model.
Wait, but why are we talking to such and such now, and why can't we, you know? And then the immediate question, 'cause we're all kind of wired this way, is, oh, but I can't talk to you anymore. I liked you. You know, that's a very basic human thing. But a lot of the things that trip us up in terms of scaling and growth are very basic and very human. When you think of scaling the company, there have been moments where you needed to add staff, where you needed to grow, and where you needed to expand. What have been some of the challenges, just in terms of the idea of scaling three? I mean, we're talking about now, but what else comes to mind?
Orsi Herbein: What are you asking?
Matt Wolfe: The whole theme of this right is about how you scale without
Orsi Herbein: Oh, without compromising, right.
Orsi Herbein: Well, again, I think Matt, I think it comes down to the definition of success, right? If I dial back. You know what Orsi wants. And even looking at that journey where, you know, I was very much in growth mode and goal-oriented, and was buzzing in my ear. There, there, things, you know,w I never wanted to be an enormous enterprise. You know, I don't think I want that. I actually really enjoy client work. I really enjoy solving problems. Right.
Matt Wolfe: Hmm. Yeah.
Orsi HerbeinAndnd why I'll, I don't dispute that I, I, I know exactly what a successful business is, you know, like in terms of. And, you know the app capacity. What matters most to me is being a difference maker. Like, really, it really boils back to what's your definition of success. And I picture Orsi Herbein, the one I wanna be, I'm an extremely kind and generous person. I'm a very, very good boss. that is loved, you know, and I'm creating a workplace where people just can't wait to come to work because it's fun, And we are, we, we care about each other.
And then I have clients that truly appreciate the value I bring to them, and they appreciate my tea, they appreciate the insights that we give to them, and the difference that we make for them, right? Like, to me. At the end of the day, that's what matters. I think any type of growth or scaling that jeopardizes isn't going to jive with me. At the end of the day, it's gonna turn into that sour-tasting, not-right-feeling in my stomach, which I experienced, you know, a couple of years ago. and, an,d and that.
Matt Wolfe: You have to be.
Orsi Herbein: That's, you know, again, if I, if I were a different kind of person who measures success by EBIT and, you know, line and, and profit margin and things like that, then I would, I would probably have a different answer for you. But I think to ACEC, EO of the heart of service, the difference. Comes, you know, at the end of the day, when I close my eyes, did I do my best? Was I there for people, and did I do everything in my power to make this world a better place? You know, that's.
Sarah Pattisall: I love that. And I think that offers a good gut check too for those CEOs who have that heart of service who want to scale and grow, but don't wanna compromise themselves or their values. So Right. Asking what success looks like for me as an individual? How does it align with my values? What does it look like for my business? And then finding that intersection point. Where you can achieve success in a way that feels right to you and your morals.
Matt Wolfe: Yeah, your definition of success doesn't have to be everyone else's. It is yours and yours alone. I think that's a great takeaway. And also the other thing. In that, I think it is really important. And again, very human, very basic, but if you try to grow at the expense of being able to do the things you love to do, it's probably not gonna go so well.
And I think that happens to a lot of people, that kind of shit, that this is why I started the business. I love doing this work, but we're only gonna grow if I give that away to other people, and I've gotta do other things. You've gotta have that tether to the thing that you love.
Orsi Herbein: It's a, it's a great point, Matt, because it. Growth comes at the cost of those things. I don't want it. I'd rather stay, I'd rather.r
Matt Wolfe: Yeah.
Orsi Herbein Stay small, and you know, that's a fact.
Orsi Herbein: But you know, if, if, if there's a way to grow, I know there is, you know, you can hold onto those values and in, in turn, what the result isn't just. on my, you know, front drive or whatever have you. But a greater impact, and more people being served and understanding the things that we are teaching them, right? And, we can capitalize on creating a greater impact that way. I think that's so much more valuable. You know, the domino effect, like, you know, why do I care about. With the heart of service, because they make such an impact, and they can do a greater impact if they are known and seen, and have the ability to grow. Right?
Matt Wolfe: Yeah, it's so cool. Every day when I get tired, the thing that keeps me moving forward is when I get to think about the coolest thing we get to do in this particular business, which is we get to help people who help people.
Orsi Herbein: Mm.
Matt Wolfe: There's this whole downstream effect of impact. Okay.
Matt Wolfe: We would be remiss if we didn't talk about the thing that we've been hinting at throughout this conversation, that we really firmly believe that brand strategy is a tool because it is a story about the relationship between the business and who they serve. It is a tool that can transform how a business operates, not only marketing. But sales and client experience, because you're tracking the whole relationship and journey of that ideal client, figuring out all of the best ways to serve them, help them feel cared for, and that just creates momentum. You do sales faster, you get 'em to the point where they're ready to do referrals faster.
That's the theory that we run under. So let's try a little rapid fire around, just, I want, so not the long answer, but just the gut check, core impulse reaction to each of these. Things. We're gonna look at those different areas and how Brand3 has changed over the years. How, so?
Matt Wolfe: First of all, how has our perspective on how Brand3 markets itself changed? Have we understood our brand story better? What's changed about how we market ourselves?
Orsi Herbein: Marketing is no longer impersonal, and it's more relational. Uh uh, you know, a hundred percent. The number one question that we ask ourselves is how do we get in front of an audience? So that we can show the brain, none of this that I just told you about will fit on an ad, right? So how, how,
Matt Wolfe: Yeah.
Orsi Herbein: So what's the minimum that Ineed too engage someone so I can have a conversation with them?. So
Sarah Pattisall: How can we meet them where they're at?
Orsi Herbein: and it's Kuhn conversational. So where, Hmm. where are the opportunities for me to? You get a little more glimpse into my brain because it's, it's not gonna fit into an ad.
Matt Wolfe: Yeah, we've seen that, especially in the B2B space, people have been over-reliant on digital
Orsi Herbein: Yeah.
Matt Wolfe: And it needs to be a vessel that. Shepherds people to a point of face-to-face, human contact, workshop, webinar, networking, or anything you can think of.
Matt Wolfe: How has our approach to sales changed as we've understood our brand story? And this relational piece is our North Star.
Orsi Herbein: We are not selling,
Matt Wolfe: Hmm.
Orsi Herbein: We're we are not selling. We are. We are providing a, a, you know, a new or, and fresh opportunities for, for clients to discover and learn about themselves. It's a, it's a, are telling truth, truth tellers. We see their beauty,y and we can. Build that into a brand that reflects it and, you know, and tells authentically to prospects what's behind the door and sets expectations the right way so that Uninvited will come in. And that's that, sounds harsh, but the truth is that your business is not for everyone. You know, there's certainly an ideal customer that's going to appreciate it. Not every personality niche or industry will react to it the same way. And, how do we debunk that and, and,
Matt Wolfe: Yeah,
Orsi Herbein: know, find, find the gems within that.
Matt Wolfe: A hundred percent. And there's both freedom. And growth in that perspective. That's what people, a lot of people, miss you. You, you're gonna find growth by getting more specific, by niching down. Sarah, you wanna ask about our last bit there?
Sarah Pattisall: Yes, behind the brand questionnaire.
Matt Wolfe: Oh, no.
Sarah Pattisall: Is that
Matt Wolfe: Sorry. I'll, I'll, I'll grab this real quick, and then we'll go do behind the brand.
Matt Wolfe: Orsi, how about our approach to client experience? How has that changed over the years and matured?
Orsi Herbein: Client experience, let's just say it was always good because we are people with a heart for service, right? So it was always good, but now it's intentional. We are intentional about the experience that we want to deliver, and we build it. We design it based on everything that we know and who we are. We design the experience in a very carefully curated way. So that we are not missing any opportunity to create a vow experience.
Matt Wolfe: Yeah, we're curating it to each client and what they truly need. You know, the other thing I would add in here, that's areally importareally importantson that we've been recently acknowledging is that we had, part of our team was client-facing and part of it was not. Some of our folks were doing background work, and we realized that was a big mistake because they weren't getting the opportunity to have a relationship with the clients and feel that care and concern.
And also the joys of sharing the victories and, and, and the setbacks with them that we get. So we've made the whole team client-facing. So that everyone can feel that care and concern for the client, and that's already making a difference. It's early days, but we're leaning way into that, and that was a big lesson to learn.
Orsi Herbein: Yeah. And there's, there's one
Matt Wolfe: Okay.
Orsi Herbein: There, Matt.
Orsi Herbein: I think a lot of the. These hard-to-service relational B2B service providers don't take advantage of their client experience delivery and their great stories, right? create case studies and, and you know, they might have Google reviews and stuff like that, but they're not, they're not intentional about taking advantage of it because they don't like to brag. There's another way, and I think what I have found fascinating is that. There's a, there's a way for you to very authentically show who you are by bragging about your client, bragging about what you've done for them, but bragging about their impact and their you know service and the way they make a difference, right?
So like these, you know, I call them the client highlights, or we're privileged to be able to work with wonderful people, like Right. so privileged, like, to, to have, you know, this, this world that we live in and, and surround ourselves with a bunch of other different makers. And, I think that's a, that's a really interesting and very authentic, you know, like you don't have to brag. Do you know about yourself? No, no. CEO with a heart for service, likes to, you know, toot their own horn. But you can do exactly what you love, and that is to talk about the wonderful successes and impact your client brings to the
Matt Wolfe: Yeah,
Orsi Herbein: You know.
Matt Wolfe: Absolutely. Okay.
Matt Wolfe: As a timeout. So we're almost outta time here. We've got a quick questionnaire, rapid fire here for the end, Orsi, and we need a chance to know the humans behind the brand. So this is our behind-the-brand questionnaire. This is the last fun thing that we like to end with, so people can get to know you, better as a human,n Orsi. And so we've got a few questions we're gonna, we're gonna go rapid fire through. I get to do the first one. What is your go-to karaoke song, a song you wish you could sing in karaoke?
Orsi Herbein: Knocking on Heaven's door
Matt Wolfe: Ooh,
Sarah Pattisall: That's a fun one.
Orsi Herbein: And, and I'm saying I wish because I can sing, I can't come in on time, so I'm grading a chorus. I'm not really good, solo, I mean, I'm good solo. If there's no music.
Matt Wolfe: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't wanna knock on Heaven's door offbeat. Okay, Sarah.
Sarah Pattisall: All right. What's the last thing that made you laugh out Loud?
Orsi Herbein: Emma, my 17-year-old daughter on my phone. Sometimes I get featured images, and a picture came up of her wearing a Fanta box on her head, the orange soda Fanta. I just cracked up 'cause she looked, she has this like really. A mellow expression with the Fanta, and I'm like, this is my daughter. And she's fantastic.
Sarah Pattisall: That's good.
Matt Wolfe: Orsi, what's your favorite way to get away from it all?
Orsi Herbein: Swimming, I went swimming just yesterday, and there's something, something else under the water, you
Sarah Pattisall: I like that.
Orsi Herbein: just the, the, the,
Sarah Pattisall: Mm-hmm.
Orsi Herbein: It shuts everything. Off, and you are now in this different realm,
Sarah Pattisall: Okay. What smell reminds you of a specific place or time?
Orsi Herbein: Mm. The smell of barbecue is in our backyard because my husband has a smoker and he just loves, loves, loves using it. I have the privilege of having ribs or, smoked anything you know, at least once a week.
Sarah Pattisall: That's awesome.
Matt Wolfe: I wish I lived closer. Alright. What's one day in your life you would like to relive? I,
Orsi Herbein: Hmm. Oh my gosh, that's a hard question.
Matt Wolfe: Yeah.
Orsi Herbein: I don't know.
Matt Wolfe: Okay. You can take a pass.
Sarah Pattisall: Mm-hmm.
Orsi Herbein: on that. I'll think about it.
Sarah Pattisall: Yeah.
Orsi Herbein: I'll write
Sarah Pattisall: What.
Orsi Herbein: When, when it posts,
Matt Wolfe: There you go.
Sarah Pattisall: I like it. What three words would your loved ones use to describe you?
Orsi Herbein: Oh, I did this exercise. I asked a bunch of people for the three words. Definitely creative, definitely strategic, and I think that, you know, generous was also on top.
Sarah Pattisall: Hmm. I can see all those.
Matt Wolfe: Okay. Orsi, I, you've kind of answered this already, but what would it mean to have truly succeeded in your work, but not the company you work for, to have truly succeeded?
Orsi Herbein: Would it mean or what is that? What would it mean?
Matt Wolfe: Yeah. What, what does it mean for you to feel like you've truly succeeded in your work?
Orsi Herbein: I think it's all the things that I said before, so that I was, you know, I was able to contribute to a better outcome for others just because I existed.
Matt Wolfe: Mm. Yeah.
Matt Wolfe: Well, this has been fun, guys. Orsi, we've been looking forward to celebrating your heart for service as our fearless leader. And it is just a joy to get to spend this time with you. We're so grateful for you. In particular, I hope you always know that. Folks, you can find us at brand3.net if you like some of the stuff we've been talking about. Meanwhile, this has been Matt Wolfe and Sarah Pattisall interviewing Orsi Herbein for Brand3. We'll see you next time.
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